我不同意你的地方就在What if. 在What if 到事实之间有无数个if not组成.但CAS为了那些也许是1-5%的可能,就采取了100%的行为(强行带走母亲身边的孩子,并抛下一个本来就精神饱受压力的母亲), 并造成母亲精神状况急剧恶化(90%不算过吧,10%归于其他原因). -sku(NOBE) @SF湾区华人论坛:SF湾区枫下论坛 The Rolia Forum of San Francisco

枫下茶话 / 社会 / 今天看到夕子《到底谁杀了她》，责怪是网友(rolia?)的言论杀死了bluelove。 -skywriting(天书); 2009-6-15 {484} (#5344642@0)
其中的论点不值一驳。有一个最大的漏洞是认为，由于网友说小儿子一定会死在有五十几个年死亡案例的CAS手里，所以把bluelove吓死了。

事实是从幼儿回家到母亲蹈死，其间差不多有一个月了。幼儿的健康问题已经不是关键问题了。bluelove赴死的原因也不简单是忧郁症的后果。正如葬礼上牧师所说的，她的死是因为她坚信她死是家人幸福的前提。

不是言论杀死，而是事实杀死了她！

不要以为CAS是社会正义的代表。他们是一个机器而已，只为了自己的工作，谈不上爱孩子，更不会爱社会。这种机构和明朝的三厂相差不是太多。

千真万确，她是想成全他的老公和孩子开始新的生活吧 -may11(May); 2009-6-15 (#5344713@0)

我很震惊，人类中能有你这样的说出这话的人，这是人类的shame! -rivereast(一江春水向东); 2009-6-15 (#5344790@0)

你不会是天使吧，人间太多痛苦你不知道吧，想不通或者经受不了人间苦难自杀的人一年也有几万人吧，连林青霞的妈妈也让她女儿不要为她太痛苦，加上病痛也是跳楼解脱自己和家人的 -may11(May); 2009-6-15 (#5344831@0)

不同易 -cat71(雪地猫抓兔); 2009-6-17 (#5350841@0)

人家活得太痛苦了，走了，明明是自杀，我们却要千方百计查找原因，想想她的生活也太没有意思了，一个残废儿子，一个小BABY，一个冷漠的老公，又没有钱，自己又有病，可能是我们吃饱了撑的，生活太无聊，找些话题 -may11(May); 2009-6-15 (#5344808@0)

恩. 你很刻薄 -zhunmama(CICI); 2009-6-15 (#5344811@0)

一切都是因果,刻薄之人必有刻薄之命数.自古至今皆然. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-15 (#5345417@0)

不尽然，天道又岂是我们这等凡夫俗子所能窥知的？ -kingsw(Steven); 2009-6-17 (#5350867@0)

你想想,没有父母的榜样,她会这样刻薄吗?同样子女如果耳濡目染,从小灌输. 会自己培养敦厚纯良吗的品德吗?再来,这样的性格会成大器, 家庭会幸福, 夫妻, 子女之间会少争端吗?世间冥冥中自有因果. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-18 (#5352622@0)

I hope I can find a way to avoid another disaster. I hope every Rolan doesn't just saliva here but also do something practical, e.g. cruiser99 and rollor. Well done!! -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 (#5344874@0)
不对！ -cat71(雪地猫抓兔); 2009-6-17 (#5350849@0)
"想想她的生活也太没有意思了，一个残废儿子，一个小BABY，一个冷漠的老公，又没有钱，自己又有病" ...如果她心知建康，乐观，这都不是理由... -cat71(雪地猫抓兔); 2009-6-17 (#5350856@0)

any idea why she had such terrible thinking? -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 (#5344849@0)

Sorry that I don't understand your logic, "她坚信她死是家人幸福的前提" Where did she get this so called "前提" from? -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 (#5344888@0)

她问过她老公关于后妈的事。她认为后妈比一个被剥夺照料孩子的权利的母亲有用得多。 -skywriting(天书); 2009-6-15 (#5344915@0)

后妈? Do you mean step mother? He husband married again? Sorry but I am totally lost! Do you mind to send me a link that covers more about what you said! -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 (#5344956@0)

It was CAS and their enforcement that made her feel incapable of taking care of her children, and the order issued by CAS that destroyed her faith of life, convincing her that her family would be better without her. -oldyou(); 2009-6-15 (#5345138@0)
She was convinced by CAS and other law enforcement team that she was not capable of taking care of her son, she started to think seriously there might be some body in this world who could -oldyou(); 2009-6-15 {144} (#5345149@0)
do the same job that she had been doing for years, at home, as good as she did, while she doesn't have to suffer. Isn't that obviously enough?

If she was mentally sick and really not capable of taking care of her sons, then she might need help. But she should be informed whatever measurement would be temporary and she could recover. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 {64} (#5345170@0)
I guess somehow, she didn't get the second part of the message.

There are more than one thousand questions unanswered in this unspeakable family tragedy, yet a couple of days ago people here were simply talking about how many children had been rescued by merciful CAS! -oldyou(); 2009-6-15 (#5345208@0)

Even if CAS was wrong in this incident but we can ignore the fact that CAS also had helped a lot of children across Canada. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 (#5345215@0)

Sorry I have no interest in CAS if they didn't contribute anything in this case. -oldyou(); 2009-6-15 (#5345227@0)

this is fine, no sorry is needed. We all want to help! Although we may not all agree with each other. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 (#5345237@0)

LMAO -lindros88(枫叶第一); 2009-6-15 (#5345171@0)

说得好。 -houseless(糊涂); 2009-6-15 (#5344938@0)
错误的信息误导，再加上她的思维出了问题，才会得出跳楼这样的解决办法。那么多自认为思维没问题的人，就算坚信CAS是魔鬼，也不会选择跳楼8？还说不是抑郁症害死了她。说这话的人，究竟对抑郁症有多少了解呢？ -kqc(海市); 2009-6-15 (#5344979@0)

if (a if that would never happen) someone can tell her CAS is a very good organzation that helps a lot of children and her baby would receive the best medical treatment from CAS. Her baby is saved with CAS. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 (#5344987@0)

CAS在北美社会中的影响是多年来的自己做下的结果,你只要肯稍微搜索一下,他的负面新闻很多,并非华人特别反感而已.CAS直接把人带走,还要这种违反中国文化理念的行为在华人网络论坛里要大家接受,这几乎是不可能的.就和地主强抢民女还要村民来祝贺安慰被害人是福气一样荒谬 -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-15 (#5345148@0)

.CAS直接把人带走,还要这种违反中国文化理念. Unfortunately, we live in Canda and there may be time that Chinese culture is in conflict with Canadian values. However, just like all of you, I love my family. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 {621} (#5345189@0)
If 1 day, I lost control on myself and I may hurt my family; please call police and CAS to do whatever to protect my family. I can't bear the idea that my family is hurt and it would be a total disaster if I am the one responsible.

And if 1 day, someone can prove that CAS took the baby without a just cause; e.g. the mother was prefectly fine before the baby was taken away from her. Just drop a note on Rolia and I would go wherever to protest with you against CAS. But if the mother was really had mental issue and might be putting the baby in danger, then your example of 地主强抢民女 is not quite appropriate.

昨天不是有人已经给过有关北美类似机构的腐败问题, 是什么让你这么笃信CAS是值得相信, 只要自己的病就把自己的孩子交给毫无血缘关系的CAS 请认真了解后再天真的相信这个世界上真的有天堂的说法. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-15 {319} (#5345255@0)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8h4SOwWXdc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8h4SOwWXdc

Thank you for sharing the info with us. If you google about police, you would find a lot of bad news about their mistake, corruption and even discrimination. But when you go home tonight and find there is thief in your house, do you call 911? -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 {943} (#5345334@0)
I agree with you CAS is not perfect and they make mistakes. This is why we need to monitor them and we bring their darkest side to the light. Why? I would like to make it better. If 1 day, I cannot protect my family; especially when my children need protection, I hope CAS can protect them. I am doing all these trouble for myself, my family and my children.

I don't know about you. I lost most of my family and friends when I came to Canada. I have to rely on organization like CAS to protect my innocent and helpless children if I am mental ill or not able to protect them.

Think if you are in such position, you are ill, you are weak and you cannot protect your love ones. You may be even in position to hurt them against your own will. And you don't have any family or friend to assist you. Do you want to have an organization to protect your children?

I hear you and I read your posts. Please join me to improve CAS!

我想你搞错了, 911不是警察系统. 而是消防,警察,医院救护的综合防治平台. 这是一, 其次需要警察帮助和揭发警察腐败内幕这两者我没有看到有什么矛盾的地方. 一个靠人民税来维持的机构为人民办事,接受检查监督本来就是份内的事.都很正常,你为何觉得不可以找警察呢? -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-15 (#5345365@0)

I didn't make myself clear. You are right 911 is not only for police but when you need police for emergency, you do call 911. The reason I quote police and its corruption is to answer your question about CAS's 腐败问题 -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 {1159} (#5345865@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛We know there is certain police officers have some 腐败问题 as well. A good exmple is what happened in Vancouver airport; the poor Polish man was killed by RCMP. But we don't get rid of the police force; we definitely need police forcce. So we have to independent committe to monitor police force, we need open channel to allow complain. So when we have emergency, we are comfortable to call 911 because we trust most (never all) police officers would be able to take care of us.

Same arguement for CAS. There are a lot of single parent families in Canada and when the only adult in the family is in trouble, they need someone from CAS to take care the children. Just like police officer, not all CAS workers did their jobs well. But should we blindly kill the whole organization for those incompetent CAS workers and let those children who need their service on the street or continue to be abused by their parents. I choose to believe, CAS should have an independent committe to monitor its services. We can complain about CAS. We can ask out government to somehow improve CAS but we should not get rid of CAS.

I may need its service 1 day.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

我的观点自始至终没有改变过,请你看看我所有的帖子,CAS的建立是有理由的,无人质疑,但和任何一个机构一样,都必须受到社会和第三方的监督.如果一个收政府资助,拿人民钱办事的机构在碰到事是自我检查或无可奉告对待质疑的话,那这个机构本身存在很大问题.需要改变. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-16 {431} (#5346207@0)
所以请不要用揭露CAS腐败就是不要CAS, 警察机构内有腐败就不需要警察这样非黑即白的方法来偏离原来主题, 我从头至尾谈的就是第三选择. CAS是缺乏有效监督的一个政府资助的机构.有很大的改进空间, 因为一个个事件在社会投下的阴影就是现实的写照.网络论坛也是现实社会舆论的一个缩影.只是更言辞更直接罢了.

当然如果有一天CAS已经照这条路继续发展下去,无人约束滥权的话, 推倒重来也未尝不可, 执政党都可以, CAS为何不可? 倒是就是一个新的为社会服务的机构产生.

Sorry for my misunderstanding. Then our position are very close. Our only difference is that I believe that theire already an independent monitor system for CAS. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 (#5346223@0)
How to Make a Complaint -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 {949} (#5346233@0)
Please view the Ontario Ministry of Children and Youth Services website
Do you have a complaint about services you have sought or received from an Ontario Children’s Aid Society? .

View the Child and Family Services Review Board Brochure, Do you want a review of a decision you have received from an Ontario Children's Aid Society or licensee? .

The OACAS is a membership organization that works on behalf of CASs and children in the province. The CASs in the province do not report to the OACAS nor does OACAS have any authority over how they deliver service. They are independent organizations managed by community boards and are funded by the Ministry of Children and Youth Services. .

If you are unhappy with the service provided to you or a member of your family, please read the Ministry brochure which outlines the process or if you want a review of a decision you received from a Children's Aid Society, read the CFSRB website.
http://www.oacas.org/childwelfare/complaint.htm

一个事件对社会的影响是多方面, 通过complaints是一种方法.民间质疑和呼声也是需要的.目前CSS的Complaints处理系统是否有效尚未得知,可能是石沉大海,而民意也有时间效应.机构是很乐得冷处理的,如果不是热点的话还有谁会继续跟,去年两位华妇的案子也是如此下场. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-16 (#5346279@0)

At least CAS has "受到社会和第三方的监督"; the message I want to sent out is to just black label CAS and think everything CAS does is wrong. So far, I don't see CAS make any mistake in this incident. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 (#5346869@0)

More CPS Corruption... -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-15 {319} (#5345257@0)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RIychlsKl4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RIychlsKl4&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeMmvq4U4aE -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-15 {319} (#5345264@0)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeMmvq4U4aE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeMmvq4U4aE
请你认真的看完美国人自己是如何对待这些机构腐败的,再把自己从对CAS的梦幻中的看法回到现实和理性中来吧. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-15 (#5345269@0)
当你多中国种种现状的不满而来到了制度完善的西方发达国家,的确是环境改善了,条件优越了.但这丝毫不代表你可以不加判断的赞美一切你不熟悉的东西.一切的美好都是有代价的.否者只能说你从有前一种逃避现实的生活方式转到了另一种逃避现实的生活方式. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-15 (#5345280@0)

据我观察，这位hkchan并没有不加判断的赞美CAS，他/她已经先行大家一步给MPP和媒体写信要求调查这件事了。觉得他在这里是最理性的一位，比那些直接把CAS归结成杀人机构的人理性的多。 -ingale(Jess); 2009-6-15 (#5345290@0)

彬彬有礼当然是美德,可那是强者面对弱者仍能表现的时候才值得被尊敬.而当我们本身就是弱者,需要合理质疑权力机构问题的时候,我们的礼貌只能被真正拥有权力的机构认为是弱者的乞求.所以必然会被忽视.除非你还有后手保留.如果没了.那这种礼貌只是华而不实的自我虚伪和麻醉. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-15 {307} (#5345325@0)
直至CAS类似行为好似杀人的确是严重的指责,但这样并不具备法律效应,社会舆论本来就是来自草根阶层的呼声,对于官僚的机构不把话说得重一点,如何能够抽动他们多年未触的神经.如果对待草根阶级的舆论要严加管束, 对待用人民的钱养肥的机构百般呵护的话, 这个社会迟早也会不如中国当今社会的后尘. 当然这个地方不是担单有中国人组成的.

他就是在合理质疑 -ingale(Jess); 2009-6-15 (#5345329@0)

合理的质疑毫无疑问是必须的, 但愤怒的舆论和社会压力才会使政府相关人员正视问题, 不敢忽视质疑的另一个重要因素. 所以他/她可以合理质疑, 但觉得写了信大家就可以不要愤怒和质疑, 大家理性的等吧是错的. 应双管齐下. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-15 (#5345387@0)

声音大指责重会 get noticed. 但是要取得实质性的胜利还是得靠有理有据有节。以为声音大权力机构就会简单的屈服那也是天真。 -kittywhy(kittywhy); 2009-6-15 (#5345487@0)

呵呵,你是在同意我双管齐下的话? 同时O.J Simpson的事件就是黑人团体声音大造成的权利机构的妥协.类似例子举不胜举.到底谁天真? -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-15 (#5345509@0)

嘿嘿。O.J. Simpson hired什么样的律师，采用了什么样的策略你知道吗？那是他有效地利用体制的结果。光靠声音大？嘿嘿。另外，他不是去年又被判刑了吗？ -kittywhy(kittywhy); 2009-6-15 (#5345534@0)

如果你只知道律师在台面上的辩词和策略,而忽视黑人社区在美国势力,种族冲突的严重程度对判决的影响.那你还是太书生气了.O.J.不是一个法律个案,而是一个历史事件. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-15 (#5345567@0)

我觉得我们应该争取公平，而不是拿传统作借口来要求特权。有个巴基斯坦人就是用穆斯林传统为自己在加拿大娶多个妻子辩护，他自己可能觉得很有道理得很，外人看来实在是讲不通的。 -baalinca(三碗不过冈十点不上网); 2009-6-16 (#5346344@0)

要谈有理有利有节,请问具体在哪里做到?写封信给MP叫CAS写份调查报告算满足了吗?还是要有第三方监督机构调查事件始末?探讨问题缘由和改善空间?有谈到吗? -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-15 (#5345526@0)

I asked my MPP to launch a public inquiry; of course, it is not going to be done by CAS and should be done by an independent judge. And I also sent a few email to various media. But my voice is weak. If I can't convince you to email your MPP -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 {443} (#5345869@0)
then I don't think I am able to convince the minister of children to launch a public inquiry. So I urge all of you to put down our difference and send an email to your MPP and MInister of Children.

And if you have something else you want me to do, e.g. protest. I would try my best to do it. But at this point, please use 5 minutes to email your MPP and Minister of Children. You can even just write Chinese if you don't know English.

支持 -goldensands(Dream); 2009-6-16 (#5345836@0)
同意 -goldensands(Dream); 2009-6-16 (#5345837@0)
双管齐下! Good, I never said everyone should just follow my footsteps. Afterall, I am just a normal person and I appreciate all your inputs. So if you think you have a better approach than mine. Please do it and share with other Rolians. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 {112} (#5345868@0)
Instead if I think yours is better, I may follow your footstep. So what is your suggestion? anything concrete?

"最理性的一位" ? ok, I am trying not be jealnous, but who is second 最理性的? -win(秋天的菠菜); 2009-6-16 (#5346857@0)

I may be just the most noisy one, definitely not the 最理性的一位. My head is not big enough to fit the hat but I have a big nose. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 (#5346877@0)
Ok, you are second. But according to someone, 理性 is not good in this case. Shouting, screaming and cursing sound more powerful and can draw more eyeballs. -ingale(Jess); 2009-6-16 (#5347389@0)

制度完善的西方? Let's come out to have a beer. i can go on and on to complain about problems at western community. But we have a mechanism to improve it. It may be slow and we have one. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 {113} (#5345359@0)
How many years Chinese took to fight with Canadian government for the head tax? Finally Steve Harper apologized.

Fight. 这个字用的好啊. 弱者对待强者讨回自己的权利需要Fight. 而不是beg是吗? 同时弱者在还没有讨回公道前就接受了Slow, 那也许就永远也讨不回公道了. 慢慢的等吧. 只有愤怒的fight是吗? -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-15 (#5345378@0)

如果你有过这样的经历就会知道，面对一个病人，只要对她的病有好处，即便是谎话也行。如果大家都像你这么说了，然后劝她积极面对治疗自己的病，很有可能就不会这么糟。况且CAS本身不是魔鬼，而她的孩子的确没什么病，并都是她臆测出来的，有人还真信了。 -harddisk(坏了); 2009-6-15 (#5345544@0)

网络不是专业人员,CAS是"专业"人员.在改善网络舆论和培训CAS人员职业行为两者上那个更容易改进?要网络停止各种言论,实行一种论调的安慰根本不可能.如果CAS人员在带走小孩的处理上更人性化一点,及时找回家人陪伴小孩,轮得上当事人急得到网上寻求帮助吗? -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-15 (#5345634@0)

稍微有点常识的人从她的帖子就能看得出那个妈妈精神有问题，在CAS出来之前就是，不是抑郁症，就是有点臆想症，那么CAS出现就是由原因的，不是毫无道理的那种。那么解决这样的方法就只有让病人安静，求医；而不是听信她孩子有病的话，或者吓唬她。 -harddisk(坏了); 2009-6-15 {184} (#5345669@0)
不要不够“专业”为理由，推脱伤害那个妈妈的责任。在责备CAS上面，怎么那么多人就觉得自己够“专业”了？

在骂CAS之前想想，当初自己有没有“好心办坏事”，把那个妈妈往崩溃的边缘上退了一把。

说的真好,稍微有点常识的朋友就必须知道,那CAS是专业家庭事务老手,那照你你的逻辑他们就是明知故犯了?知道母亲最急的地方是孩子的健康和安全,偏偏故意要用强硬的方法去直接触及她脆弱的神经,而以"正当的名义".有了权力就可以爽一下了.反正对悲剧的发生可以毫不负责是吗? -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-16 {69} (#5346130@0)
如果说有些网友是业余的好心办坏事,那CAS就是专业的"好心"办坏事的是吗?

真是跟女人吵架一点逻辑都没有，说A犯错误了，那就表明B就一定没犯错误吗？A是A的错误，B是B的错误。那些犯了错误A的人不但没意识到自己的错误，反而理直气壮，这样没有common sense，骂起B来怎么那么底气十足？ -harddisk(坏了); 2009-6-16 (#5347071@0)

看事情要看起因和始作俑者,这是判断是非的一个基本逻辑. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-16 (#5347330@0)

那些A自己都不会承认错误，A骂B,指望B就会承认错误吗？“不配”吧。这里有人自己站出来承认当是自己犯了错误，不该那样顺着bluelove的思路，更不该让bluelove陷入更加恐惧的心理中吗？他们有意识到自己的错误吗？ -harddisk(坏了); 2009-6-16 (#5347096@0)

如果你真的有逻辑的话,请搞清事情的缘由来自于CAS强行带走孩子,妈妈在网上看到众所纷说的论坛后选择了CAS不会看好自己孩子的说法. 所以事情起因是专业的CAS.同时你责怪网络,网络的看法容易改进还是CAS一个机构容易改进.不看看谁说的话又实际作用. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-16 {402} (#5347320@0)
再举个例子, 一个无知天真的女孩如果先遭坏人欺负了,自己不敢确认,就问旁人,旁人认为这是不光彩的事, 并如实告知, 女孩难过自己清白遭毁自杀. 你是责怪旁人还是追查原作俑者? 谁责任重大.

当然有人可以说孩子被CAS强行带走是好事, 为孩子好, 可一来CAS的确有不光彩的历史新闻, 具体表现在母亲面前的又是强势干预, 有脑子的人没人会当好事看. 要是母亲在孩子被强行带走后还高高兴兴的去医院看自己的毛病那才是真的脑子有问题的人.

你的这个例子举得好：如果现如今还有舆论能把强奸受害者说死，这个舆论跟强奸犯本身都是半斤八两了。用你的逻辑，强奸犯固然可恶，但这舆论确实没错的，他们不是安慰受害者，而是把她说死，也是没错的。 -harddisk(坏了); 2009-6-16 (#5347890@0)

不是舆论说死,是舆论告知其实际情况而已.你在看到了CAS事件后连强奸犯都可以和网络论坛等同了罪行.逻辑进化的真厉害. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-16 (#5348533@0)

Can you move your logic 1 step ahead. Why did CAS take away the baby? If CAS can prove to you that at that very moment, the baby was at danger because her mother was very emotional that the doctor refused to save her baby. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 {49} (#5347910@0)
Do you still think CAS was wrong? Just a BIG if.

奇怪了,CAS只管孩子,不管母亲的说法你们拿来作为专业解释. 造成母亲直接自杀的CAS行为,就是直接因果,我为何要再前推呢? 先东拉西扯网络不好(转移母亲自杀原因的焦点), 再前推之前的故事(好像母亲咎由自取),在后推母亲自杀本来就是不正常.总之就是CAS做的对,哈哈.真会敖. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-16 (#5348525@0)

奇怪了. Why did you say "CAS只管孩子,不管母亲"? They cared the mother and arranged a medical appointment but they don't have any authority to force the mother to receive any medical treatment. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-18 {1013} (#5352296@0)
And I never said "总之就是CAS做的对". I asked for an investigaiton to find out the truth from my MPP, Minister of Children and a few newspaper.

Everything has a priority. If you see a house is burning and a child is inside the house. What would you do right away? Call his parents to get permission to get inside the house? or just go inside the house to rescue the child first and then call the parents afterward.

I don't know what happened in the clinic and this is why I asked for an investigation that if CAS had any wrong doing. But if CAS is right and the CAS worker had reasonble doubt that the mother might hurt the baby and the mother refused to disclose any information about her family, including the father's phone number. Should the CAS worker let her go? The priority is to save the baby.

If you don't agree with me, why don't you also ask for an investigation and find the truth! This is all I ask for, to find the truth, so that we can avoid similar disaster in the future.

请理清逻辑在谈问题, 否则都混在一起. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-18 {944} (#5352712@0)
CAS把孩子带走, 安排母亲检查

1. 你要说的CAS带走的原因是母亲带孩子多次看病, 导致医生怀疑母亲有焦虑,和精神状况问题等等. 这是直接因果

2. 把孩子带走是造成母亲遭受严重严重打击的直接原因.是吗? 如果是就是是, 不要再前推和混淆. 因为这就是直接因果

3. 接着那我们讨论母亲遭受如此打击是最终走上自杀之路的最重要和直接原因啊? 同样是就是是,

在以上3个直接因果中, 主要问题都出来了, 讨论就可以重点讨论着三个关键点, 什么网络评论, 母亲会带孩子一起自杀, 伤害孩子都是猜测, 我们只谈事实因果可以吗?

CAS带走孩子的具体行为是否符合人性话(一开始就提出来, 不要用什么专业来, 已经直接造成当事人自杀的专业机构还是先摘掉比较好, 就谈具体行为是否正确, 事情还谈什么专业行为), 面对2,3的直接因果事实(请注意, 这是事实因果, 不要再猜测了? 靠猜测在法庭上也是拿不出台面的), CAS在1的行为是否可以改进? 同时是否具备监督机构了?如果没有, 凭什么相信CAS是一个让人放心的机构? 同样就会到处第4个直接事实因果

4. 目前社会普遍反感CAS这种机构的霸道,带走孩子,拆散家庭的行为. 需要整改.

I am lost, can you please tell me your answer to my question first. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-18 (#5352730@0)
CAS在1的行为是否可以改进? 同时是否具备监督机构了?如果没有, 凭什么相信CAS是一个让人放心的机构? 同样就会到处第4个直接事实因果 -hkchan(*); 2009-6-18 {420} (#5352749@0)
CAS在1的行为是否可以改进? That was my question to you. What would you do if you were the CAS worker who face a mother who lost her control and might hurt the baby,

同时是否具备监督机构了? Yes, this is why I suggest you to complain through those 监督机构 if you believe CAS was wrong.

凭什么相信CAS是一个让人放心的机构? No, we don't believe CAS this is why we have so many formal and informal monitor channels.

#5352784@0 我想这应该比较好的把我的重点归纳出来了,大家都不要再逗圈子找其他理由. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-18 (#5352788@0)

那我再来举例,如孩子被绑架失踪多日,社会关注并责怪母亲粗心,母亲愧疚自杀,是不是大家还要感谢绑架者做的好啊,理由是母亲不正常啊.照你们的逻辑?!大家应该劝母亲相信绑架者是比尔盖茨当女儿去了啊?你们的逻辑究竟出什么问题了? -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-16 (#5348561@0)

Your example is totally against the facts. It is not a 绑架 and CAS is not 绑架者. And you forgot the very begining of the instance, CAS just tryied to save the baby. Unless you or someone can prove that the baby was safe at the first place. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-18 (#5352302@0)

孩子从出生起母亲一直陪伴养育,直到被CAS强行带走为止,对母亲来说,究竟是被CAS,还是被匪徒带走,其亲眼面对的失去孩子的状况是一样的,孩子是否安全,在哪里,会不会得到好好照顾都不知道.你能不担心说没事,而母亲绝非这么想.不要用CAS是好心来掩饰,要看干出的是不是好事才对. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-18 {729} (#5352614@0)
如果母亲是你的想法的话,她根本不会再网上求救,很多母亲也根本不会感同身受的感到难过和无法接受.所以你从开始就没有从一个母亲的角度出发考虑问题. 同时也会像很多人故意把CAS强行带走孩子这一事件淡化成一根稻草, 而把网络的议论, 母亲事前为孩子担心的焦虑,长期的精神压力都夸大成(并在没有医生鉴定报告基础上就认定为)为精神病, 并进一步毫无理由的推测母亲会伤害自己孩子.以达到为CAS辩护的目的, 这种想法一开始就应该立刻被指出有问题, 整个演推过程充满了臆想和猜测. 所以不同意你们的把主要问题(带走孩子对母亲重大打击这一毫无争议的事实)避过不谈的态度.要把一个孩子从其生母身边带走要极其慎重考虑,而不是轻描淡写的说些没事的话,就连猫狗鸟禽你要把幼崽带离母亲的怀抱必遭最严厉的攻击,无论你是好意还是恶意,这个事实为何对一些受过教育的人解释反而如此困难要一再提醒呢?

"带走孩子对母亲重大打击这一毫无争议的事实" 100% agree, this is why I don't argue with you. However, you have NOT answered my question. What if (a if that I intend to find out) the mother really have mental problem at that very moment. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-18 {1827} (#5352687@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛If she was so emotional and loss control of herself and the baby was in danger (and of course you can argue that was never the case but let's say that was the situation) and she refused to call her husband or discolose her husband contact information. What would you do if you were the CAS worker.

I guess my unique encounter with serious mental problem patient gave me a different view of this indicent. I know a friend when we were very small kids, we went to the same Church and we played together every week. He had depression after went to oversea for education. He came home and we (5 - 6 people) went to visit him. We just talked; no body dare to mention his sickness; we did nothing to irritate him. And all of a sudden, he just turned crazy. We had to call police. Police came to arrest him and sent him to a mental hospital. Many years ago, I know a medical professor who specializes in suicide. He told me it wasn't unusual that something we said might tigger him. It might something very normal for us but not for my friend. He was under control with medicine and married. You don't have to believe what I said but please consult with other real professional psycharists and ask them if a mother couldn't suddenly loss control and hurt the child they used to love more than their own life.

What you said was 100% correct about a normal mother. I can also asked the same question if a normal man would virtually destroy his own hose and tried to fight with his best friends.

CAS has NO right to take away a child from a normal mother. But if one day, I lost control and become mentally ill. My wife would have no way to protect the children from me, please call police and CAS for my wife. The last thing I even want to do if to hurt my own family with my own hands. I am very sincere.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

我不同意你的地方就在What if. 在What if 到事实之间有无数个if not组成.但CAS为了那些也许是1-5%的可能,就采取了100%的行为(强行带走母亲身边的孩子,并抛下一个本来就精神饱受压力的母亲), 并造成母亲精神状况急剧恶化(90%不算过吧,10%归于其他原因). -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-18 {1518} (#5352784@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛作为一个旁人, 对于CAS这个100%的行为立刻提出质疑,

1. 为何不采取缓和人性的方法, 而直接强行带走,
可以安排, 母亲信服的大医院, 比如sick children hospital, 多伦多总院这些世界排名靠前的权威机构, 同时介绍这些医院的情况给母亲了解, 一同陪伴去医院, 一方面让母亲安心, 同时也让母亲不单独和孩子相处. 同时也彻底检查孩子, 翻译解释医生的诊断报告给母亲听. 这些都是人性化的方法.

如果在接触过程中, 产生权威医院的检查报告没事, 耐心解释后通过观察母亲显示出烦躁, 不安的态度, 这时在采取进一步措施. 或必须有人看护, 或在父亲到场的情况下提出建议等等. 都是可接受的方法. 如果母亲不是继续烦躁, 而是发现CAS是真的在帮自己, 很可能情绪稳定下来(母亲为何会烦躁, 就是在异国他乡没有人帮助,自己又缺乏专业医护知识造成的压力). 那CAS就可以通过密切和母亲保持, 从和母亲做朋友的方法来达到真正保护孩子的目的.这个难道很难吗? 最多就是1-2个CAS人员1天的时间而已. 为何不那样做? 归其原因是孩子没进CAS不算工作成绩是吗? 这又是一个直接因果答案, 利益驱使人的行为.

(有人竟然说这是成本太高所以CAS不管, 简直是放P, CAS担心成本就导致家破人亡了? 这个成本谁来负?)

2. 为何不事先通知父亲, 而是事后?

3. 为何不安排人陪伴母亲
既然知道母亲精神有问题, 而且是明知道母亲非常非常爱孩子的, 而且母亲的精神压力就是来自于对孩子健康的担心, 而CAS还偏偏要强行直接带走孩子,这点我绝不原谅和理解,如果母亲是虐待孩子的, CAS带走并立刻通知父亲回家可以理解, 把一个因为爱孩子到不行的母亲身边夺走孩子并, 让她孤单在家的行为是毫无人性的

同样, 判断母亲是否Normal不应该是CAS人员自己认为,而是要医生处鉴定报告为准. 否则一旦CAS以收养孩子数量为获取资金的评定指标的话, 必定滥收孩子.造成更多的不幸.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

You still haven't answered my questions. But I would answer yours, because all of your questions are based on "what if" as well since both you are I are 旁人 and we have no first hand information about what happened. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-18 {973} (#5353288@0)
1. How do you know CAS worker didn't offer what you sugested "缓和人性的方法" and the victim was so emotion and refused.

2. How do you know if CAS worker didn't ask for father's contact info and the victim didn't disclose such info to the CAS worker. Do you know if the victim called her husband when the baby was taken? If yes, why she couldn't tell husband what happended. If no, then why not? Why do you blame CAS worker didn't call the father?

3. How do you know CAS worker did not try to arrange 人陪伴母亲 and she refued.

Of course, you may argue all these are "what if". But until you can show your evidence; all yours are "what if" as well. So why your "what if" is more trustworth than mine?

判断母亲是否Normal不应该是CAS人员自己认为, why not? They were authorised by Ontario Legislation. If you don't think so, then you should bring it up to your MPP for discussion. I agree they should be given such power for emergency.

回答 -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-18 {1457} (#5354135@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛1. How do you know CAS worker didn't offer what you sugested "缓和人性的方法" and the victim was so emotion and refused.

因为CAS把孩子带走后母亲立刻惶恐不安的在网上求助, 所以我知道CAS的带走是突然的,没有做事前稳定母亲的工作,更谈不上和母亲先做思想沟通,否则母亲不会遭受如此重大打击.母亲也更本没有为CAS人员的行为感到任何的善意(甚至是让母亲强烈感到敌意,所以母亲会紧张,惶恐不安,甚至愧疚,这在母亲的后来谈话中明显看得到,这不都是拜CAS专业行为所赐? 这个还要问我 How to know 吗. ), 这个理由是否充分了?

CAS在这个事情的对待上是一种对付有纠纷矛盾的家庭态度去处理一个为为孩子操心多日,付出全部爱的母亲, 这就是导致悲剧的直接原因. 如果CAS用我前贴的建议方法,真的替母亲和家庭去解决问题,帮助孩子和母亲, 绝对不是这个结果.而目前CAS的处理方法是最糟糕的.是可以用非人性来形容的.

2. How do you know if CAS worker didn't ask for father's contact info and the victim didn't disclose such info to the CAS worker. Do you know if the victim called her husband when the baby was taken? If yes, why she couldn't tell husband what happended. If no, then why not? Why do you blame CAS worker didn't call the father?

还是一样, 如果CAS能够和母亲做到足够的沟通, 帮助孩子和母亲共同解决问题, 那父亲的联系方法是根本不难取得的. 因为事实上是CAS跟本没有考虑到母亲的心情和情绪, 直接带走完成任务, 然后时候在通知父亲, 在被带走孩子母亲一个人在空空的房间的这段时间是对母亲打击最大的时间.

我再次提出我没有仍和的What if, 我只是提出4个因果关系全部基于事实, 是你有太多的What if 辩护.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

my questions! -hkchan(*); 2009-6-18 {837} (#5354411@0)
Your assumption (what if) is she is still a normal mother. And my assumption (what is) is her mental condition was not longer normal. And your logical thinking is based on a normal people.

1. 因为CAS把孩子带走后母亲立刻惶恐不安的在网上求助. Even if the CAS worker tried to confort and reason her but she might be too emotion that she hardly understood a word from the CAS worker. Have you ever experienced a mental ill patient? It would be impossible to communicate with them.

2. I had a few encounters with mental ill people. Why do you try to volunteer at mental hospital? And try to ask them simple questions, e.g. what is your name? what is your phone number? Believe me, you don't know how bad a mental ill patient can communicate with the rest of world.

You may not know but you are assuming that she was normal.

我的回答很清楚早已谈到 -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-19 {824} (#5355158@0)
1. 说明CAS思想工作根本没有做到位, 同时如果母亲正常, 不用带走孩子, 如果认为母亲有问题, 绝对不可以把孩子直接带走, 而让一个有问题的母亲孤零零的在家. 这就是基本道理, 却被发生了. 什么Even if worker tried to comfort her. 对不起 You have make too much assumptions. 结果就是母亲在没有家人陪伴的情况下, 孤立无援的在网上求助. 这是什么的难过和悲凉? 还要想吗?

2. 又是你的想象力吧, 你已经假设那个母亲已经不能回答那些问题. 可是那个母亲还是整段的打下整段文字在网上求助哪, 可见并没有丧失清醒意识啊. 同时你如何能够断定对于CAS的突然闯入, 母亲会一下子紧张发晕, 就像面试紧张一样. 你问什么问题脑子会一片空白, 几个问题就可以断定人脑子有问题吗. 给过母亲一个放松稳定的空间里吗? 事实就是根本没有, 因为之后母亲焦急万分的网上发言求助的事实, 并清楚的写出CAS干了些什么. 可看出她焦急, 忧虑, 紧张但并未失去理智和意识. 这还是事实.

我哪里来的What if?

如果你根本没看过loveblue以前写的那几个帖子，就迫不及待地来给CAS判罪，我觉得是有点过于用情感代替理智了 -kqc(海市); 2009-6-19 (#5355169@0)

我没有判罪,我不是法官,我作因果分析判定责任,和对结果,这个责任有多重大比重. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-19 (#5355220@0)
请给出我看得这个帖子以外的其他链接,我从这个帖子中可以断定她极度焦虑,并上网求助是由CAS带走孩子引起的,但不可以通过网络判定她有什么精神问题. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-19 (#5355229@0)

To be quite honest, if I am CAS lawyer, I would really aprreciate all the 帖子 loveblue had posted in the past. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-19 (#5355240@0)
loveblue 在rolia就发过不止一个帖子，包括你给的chinasmile的那个帖子里甚至就有链接。另外，请读all the 帖子，包括回帖和loveblue自己的回帖。 -kqc(海市); 2009-6-19 {70} (#5356801@0)
你喜欢逻辑推理的精神是好的，但是注意细节，搜集一切证据似乎做的还不够。

Your "what if" is the mother was normal. I hope I don't need to repeat it. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-19 {1033} (#5355197@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛1. 结果就是母亲在没有家人陪伴的情况下, 孤立无援的在网上求助. Why didn't she call her husband right away? Why did she seek help on internet instead? If someone took my child, I would call my wife right away.

2. 同时你如何能够断定对于CAS的突然闯入, 母亲会一下子紧张发晕, 就像面试紧张一样. 你问什么问题脑子会一片空白, 几个问题就可以断定人脑子有问题吗. 给过母亲一个放松稳定的空间里吗? Is it your assumption? That was similar to my assumption as well. So you argreed under certain scenarios that the mother might not be able / willing to tell the CAS worker her husband contact info, then you couldn't blame CAS worker didn't try to contact the father.

母亲焦急万分的网上发言求助的事实, 并清楚的写出CAS干了些什么. 可看出她焦急, 忧虑, 紧张但并未失去理智和意识. She can regain her 理智 afterward, but she might lost herself at the local clinic.

I guess there is no point to continue our discussion. We should instead try to find out the truth. Have you emailed to your MPP, Minister of Children and other media yet?更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

我的反应 -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-19 {1630} (#5355223@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛1. 结果就是母亲在没有家人陪伴的情况下, 孤立无援的在网上求助. Why didn't she call her husband right away? Why did she seek help on internet instead? If someone took my child, I would call my wife right away.
你想证明什么?母亲因为求助网络没有父亲就是不正常? 你怎么知道没有联系? 就像你问我你怎么知道CAS没有联系父亲一样的回答.可能一时没有联系, 但同样CAS和母亲, CAS没有联系上父亲可以一直陪伴母亲知道直到找到为止, 但CAS没做. 母亲如果一时没有联系上父亲可能转而网上求助. 这很符合常理.

2. 同时你如何能够断定对于CAS的突然闯入, 母亲会一下子紧张发晕, 就像面试紧张一样. 你问什么问题脑子会一片空白, 几个问题就可以断定人脑子有问题吗. 给过母亲一个放松稳定的空间里吗? Is it your assumption? That was similar to my assumption as well. So you argreed under certain scenarios that the mother might not be able / willing to tell the CAS worker her husband contact info, then you couldn't blame CAS worker didn't try to contact the father.

我只谈事实合理性, 同时问更详细的CAS判定带走孩子的标准是什么, 是简单几个问题还是需要专业精神医生的陪伴. 同时考虑过环境给人带来的压力造成当事人无法正常回答问题的因素存在吗? 如果考虑过并做了, 请给证据.

母亲焦急万分的网上发言求助的事实, 并清楚的写出CAS干了些什么. 可看出她焦急, 忧虑, 紧张但并未失去理智和意识. She can regain her 理智 afterward, but she might lost herself at the local clinic.

I guess there is no point to continue our discussion. We should instead try to find out the truth. Have you emailed to your MPP, Minister of Children and other media yet?

不要因为发了邮件就算解决问题, 发现问题需要大家一起提出质疑的和解决方案.

＜本文发表于: 相约加拿大:枫下论坛 www.rolia.net/forum ＞更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

不要因为发了邮件就算解决问题, 发现问题需要大家一起提出质疑的和解决方案. So what 解决方案 Rolia come up now? -hkchan(*); 2009-6-19 (#5355236@0)

如果你发了信,感谢您的努力.如有不同见解,Rolia是个交流平台,现看到有更多人关心这事,Rolia就已经发挥了作用是吗?至于实际怎么做,如捐钱电话关心参加葬礼发信MPP.这个是Rolia以外的事,没有人必须在Rolia上汇报是吗?也不影响你我的观点的形成是吗? -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-19 (#5355389@0)

Thank you for your time. Altoough I don't agree with you, I greatly aprecaite your involvement and discussion which force me to think if I am wrong. I think Rolia did a good job to give us a platform to have such constructive discussion. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-19 {315} (#5355407@0)
Even we cannot agree with each other, I hope our difference would not stop us to work together and find a better solution to avoid further disaster. I hope you atleast agree with my goals which are to protect our children help other less fortunate immigrants.

Hope I can have a beer with you in real life 1 day.

当然是应该这样, 谢谢你的努力和讨论. 一起继续关心这件事吧. 大家都希望这个社会能够在法制,程序完善的基础上, 时刻充满着人性的关爱. 不要再让悲剧发生在有一个家庭身上. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-19 (#5355471@0)

奇怪,我前贴有那个地方在What if? 我在一直的联系因果谈问题并提醒你不要Wha if.因为追究责任都是基于事实谈因果关系和影响,同时你要辩护也必须基于事实而不是What if. 是吗? -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-18 (#5354144@0)

Your "what if" is what if the mother was still normal? And refused to consider another "what if",what if the mother was seriously mental if? Both "what if"s have to confirmed to find out the truth. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-18 {558} (#5354431@0)
If her husband agree, I can help to fight for a public inquiry to find out the truht. I am not biased and I tried to help. Please don't consider I am someone's enemy. There would be a lot of witness. The police office, the doctors (in hospital and clinic) and patients visted clinic. They can all be the witness to tell you the truth.

If my "what if" is wrong and you are right, then great! Then her family can sue CAS for damage and help the children to have at least some financial supports. Nothing can replace the love from a normal mother.

反了吧,没有任何书面鉴定说这个母亲患有精神疾病,并严重到要伤害孩子.而是你们在What if母亲带着孩子一起自杀吧. 我只是说母亲因为长期的孩子疾病没有得到一个满意的答复,带孩子多看了几次免费的医院被怀疑有精神而已. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-19 {607} (#5355150@0)
正因为我不做任何What if, 只是就事论事看问题. 哪来的whatif mother is normal. 你为何不去质问CAS不去带孩子去最好的医院, 并通过耐心解释让母亲多了解医院医生的情况, 到达满意和安定情绪的目的, 并之后密切保持和这个家庭的联络. (听说已经秘密更重长达36小时,如果属实,其目的不外乎就是搜索异常,就等着看母亲反常, 达到带走孩子的目的, 其实早就可以主动提出帮助和关怀, 先从解决母亲担忧着手啊, 这是解决问题关键, 大家早就看出来了, CAS不做, 还辩护个什么), 从关怀和朋友的角度去解决问题(这恰恰是很多移民家庭出于困境中最需要的). 可不要说CAS是不管这个事的, 只管带走孩子的. 那接下来我们就无可避免的再谈我的因果分析咯. 我真的不想重复了.

You don't know any 事论. Were you there when CAS worker took the baby? You only have 听说! -hkchan(*); 2009-6-19 (#5355198@0)

CAS和母亲就是当事人, 没有第三方在场,你听谁说, 当然是先听当事人双方说了? 在看实际情况是否符合逻辑和因果关系!!! -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-19 {110} (#5355219@0)
幸好有网络,还有当事人生前的留言,和心情的历程,否则只有CAS一家之言那才是死无对证.所以在这点上网络的存在很有必要.

How about the police officer? doctor? nurse? and patients in the clinic. They can all be witness. CAS cannot cover their mouth!! -hkchan(*); 2009-6-19 (#5355235@0)

那叫证人.有助于把事实澄清的作用. 分直接和间接证人, nurse, doctor 属于间接, 最有意义的证人就是CAS在进入家庭后的执行领走孩子的当事人和旁证是否有第三方(即无利益相关方在场), 如果没有, 当事人的双方陈述需要被聆听和分析. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-19 (#5355399@0)

CAS真的不带走孩子,母亲可能会带孩子一起自杀和伤害孩子理由也成立的话. 那以后所有强奸犯可以说因为我不强奸那女子的话, 我朋友说要杀了她, 就脱罪了.而法官回头去治罪那个朋友了?如果觉得荒唐的话, 还是谈即成事实的因果关系吧. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-19 (#5355162@0)

Well, if you truly believe CAS was so wrong, then the best thing to do is to help the the husband to take legal action against CAS. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-19 {201} (#5355199@0)
But from all the legal document I read so far, CAS can seize the child if is has reasonable belief the child is in dangerous. And if you think CAS has too much power, then you should talk to your MPP.

我还是要再一次说明,很多现象先不谈对错,先谈因果(也许你还是不明白我这话的意义,但我还是要重申一下).如果我们分析下来, 导致loveblue自杀的最大的原因的确是CAS强行带走造成打击的话, 我们不是法官, 贸然说CAS这是错的. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-19 {802} (#5355445@0)
先看具体情况,CAS人员如果是按照程序走, 带走孩子. 那这个程序就必须要改进. 如果是认定是人为疏失. 那就对CAS人员当事人加以责罚. 对于目前这个家破人亡的结果, 包括很多与我在内(也许也包括你,如果不是那抱歉). 都认为结果不应该注定是这样的.

一旦CAS人员的行动和这个结果有必然的因果关系, CAS就必然有改进空间(因为导致的结果不让人接受啊), 如果一旦有监督机构认定有责任, 也应该用于承认. 而且要努力的从现实中接受教训加以改进.

这完全符合和逻辑推理

A. CAS的行为 B. 母亲自杀的结果

我一直在解释因果关系是 A->B, 如果成立了, !B -> !A 必定成立,
也就是A的行为必须要改变(在程序上或执行上)

你如果要反驳我, 就可以像很多其他人一样. 列出其他足可以和孩子被领走同样严重的行为来打击母亲, 导致其自杀的其他原因. 比如事前有怀疑忧郁症, 网络, 父亲不关心等等.

就我目前看来, 还没有一个可以和孩子被强行领走影响来的直接.

Again, I don't agree but I love to see someone can prove A -> B in front of a court trial then the victim's family could take legal action against CAS. But at least, I am not convinced. It may be my small brain just can't handle it. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-19 (#5355523@0)

BTW, next time you talk to a lawyer, please repeat your story and you may find something very surprised. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-19 (#5355200@0)

all your points are based on "what if". Do you know for sure that CAS didn't do or at least tried to do all the things that mentioned in your 3 points? -hkchan(*); 2009-6-18 (#5353616@0)

逝者已去,可活着的人总想把问题弄个水落石出.当我4月在ROLIA 上看过BLUELOVE 的帖子,从我自身经历,我觉得她已经精神失控.鉴于自己没有专业知识,所以很犹豫是否该给点建议,悲剧这么快就发生了,有点为自己的旁观和冷血内疚.建议一旦发现自己有点失控,赶快找专业心理辅导. -goodmom(how can be a goodmom); 2009-6-16 (#5347821@0)

对，我记得那个贴子，根本就不知所云，我和我朋友还讨论过觉得她肯定有产后忧郁症。她劳工应该带她寻求专业帮助。 -whatislove(什么是爱); 2009-6-16 (#5347851@0)

什么产后忧郁症，尽CAS瞎编的故事。两个孩子一个四岁一个也快两岁了，哪个产后忧郁症头几年都不犯病这时候犯病的。 -oldyou(); 2009-6-16 (#5347992@0)

产后忧郁,带孩子的劳累和劳心,生活压力和忧虑长期压抑着,在某些敏感因素(CAS介入)刺激下爆发出来.没能控制住激动情绪,导致CAS把孩子带走,也没有及时发现问题错在那里,及时寻求帮助和专业辅导,只是逃避问题,最后导致悲剧发生. -goodmom(how can be a goodmom); 2009-6-16 (#5348082@0)

。在家里，她一直的乐观的那一半，连CAS的人也承认，最难忘的是她的BIG SMILE。 -oldyou(); 6.15 11:29 (#5343667@0 你如果去了她的葬礼貌，看过她带孩子的照片，就会明白产后忧郁的传言根本是毫无根据的猜测。 -oldyou(); 2009-6-16 (#5348102@0)

I don't know about her but I can see her through you and how much you missed her. I just hope all of us learn a lesson from her and proactively help our neighbourhood, our community. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 {89} (#5348156@0)
Spend 5 minutes to greet someone who does not have a smile on their face may save a life.

Totally agree with you! No mater what happen, calm down and think positive! My children will be back from the party, my half dayoff will be gone soon.Take care! -goodmom(how can be a goodmom); 2009-6-16 (#5348225@0)

大部分生过孩子的妈妈都会有产后忧郁,只是持续时间长短,有没有及时发现及时治疗,和会否成为诱发其他精神疾病病根.看外表是看不出来的,风平浪静也看不出来,只要受刺激和无助时,就会不知所措,凡事总往坏的方面想. -goodmom(how can be a goodmom); 2009-6-16 (#5348160@0)

你这个＂大部分＂的结论把我吓着了，我老婆还有我同学朋友的老婆们加起来生了十多个，没见一个抑郁过，敢情我们是一小撮。 -oldyou(); 2009-6-16 (#5348218@0)

LUCKLY THEM! -goodmom(how can be a goodmom); 2009-6-16 (#5348239@0)
除了你老婆之外，你有如此近距离长时间的接触她们吗？要知道，有些big smile后面有酸楚的，只是人家会不会show给你而已。 -copperbean(豆泡果之铜豌豆); 2009-6-16 (#5348330@0)

请定义一下何为近距离长时间？产房不进，月子里一星期看一至两次，经常电话交流，再近我怕出状况。 -oldyou(); 2009-6-16 (#5348350@0)

他表示，有13%的婦女在妊娠期間以及產后一年內會患上抑郁症，產后抑郁症可能与体內甾激素和孕激素水平急劇降低有關， -hkchan(*); 2009-6-18 {270} (#5353344@0)
但還有許多其它因素的影響，如：家族中有人患過精神疾病；本人以前患過抑郁症；嬰儿非母乳喂養；對養育小孩感到有過重的壓力；婚姻不和；經濟壓力；缺乏社會支持等。產后抑郁症如得不到有效的治療，會有自殺的危險性。除此之外，一些身体上的頑疾，如癌症等也可使某些患者因絕望而棄絕生命。
http://www.ccue.com/ccp_east/2009-06-11/1244769072d1835647.html

我也去了，可我并没有得出跟你一样的结论。只觉得生活对新移民来说太难太难了，何况她还有着一个需要特殊照顾的孩子，并非所有的人都能够很达观地面对如此大的压力。smile也好、表面的乐观也罢，改不了压力大这个事实。 -copperbean(豆泡果之铜豌豆); 2009-6-16 (#5348190@0)

that was my argument! Someone argued that the trigger point was when the baby was taken away. But I argued that the trigger point may be when no doctor was willing to take care her baby when she firmly believed her baby was critically ill. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 {495} (#5348125@0)
I believed you also read her original posts; so you should have very good understanding on her conditions as well. Do you think there is such possibilitty?

If you don't mind I used you story as an illustration. If a mother mentally broke down in court because of the divorice pressure and the way the lawyer questioned her; then a CAS worker took away her baby right away in the court. Then someone may still challenge the CAS worker should be responsible for the woman mental break down.

I agree with you. My father had his first heart attack 15 years ago. During the 6 months waiting time for the operation, I never told him how critical his condition was and how serious the operation was. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 {342} (#5345859@0)
Becuase it did NO good to let him know the truth apart from giving him a lot of anexity which might make his condition worse.

His cardiologist didn't agree and was quite upset about what I didn't do. He believed my father had a right to know about himself. This is a goodexample of conflict between Chinese culture and western value.

"这种机构和明朝的三厂相差不是太多".你难道是从人民共和国移民到三厂当权的国度？ -lok(lok); 2009-6-15 (#5345391@0)
This comment posted on 51 was really interesting. -oldyou(); 2009-6-15 {379} (#5345455@0)
ZT

I believe that the reason the lady (Xi Zi) wrote the stupidest essay is because she never got married and never had a child, so she does not understand the feelings of being a father and mother.

Another reason is that she trusts western culture more than the one she was born with, she believes every aspect from the Western, even if many of them are just piece of s**t.

what is 51? -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 (#5345870@0)

是罪恶的加拿大，万恶的多伦多杀死了bluelove -weiwei018(hai); 2009-6-15 (#5345480@0)
理解，就像被封拉嘴，然后听那公正的审判。这滋味是难受啊。解脱拉也是个选择。 -goldensands(Dream); 2009-6-16 (#5345834@0)
她难道不是因为忧郁症自杀的吗？一个正常人遇到这种事情也不可能一死了之的。 -whatislove(什么是爱); 2009-6-16 (#5346892@0)

自杀出资多个原因,最大因素是CAS把孩子强行直接带走后陡增的焦虑和挫折感,如此费心照顾孩子,竟然还被强行带走,无形中宣判了自己是不称职不及格的母亲,导致强烈的愧疚和难过,加上心中的寄托完全被剥夺,多日的不眠和原来的抑郁症,造成无可挽回的悲剧. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-16 (#5347875@0)

其实根本没有被完全剥夺，只是暂时的。事实上，是这里某些人的言论，让她认为她的孩子会死，让她认为她会“完全被”剥夺，才让她最后崩溃的。 -harddisk(坏了); 2009-6-16 (#5347895@0)

我指得是在孩子不在的当时的确是被剥夺了.为何要咬文嚼字呢,要玩文字游戏的话,就算孩子死了,还可以再生一个,母亲资格也没有剥夺是吗?请理解当事人心情吧. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-16 (#5347960@0)

若理解她的心情，就应该劝慰她，让她安静，找医生，配合。而不是吓唬她。不管安慰的话是真是假，有助于问题解决才行。 -harddisk(坏了); 2009-6-16 (#5348306@0)

论坛从来就是什么话都有,没有办法遏制,其实孩子被强行带走,母亲心里基调就是难过,不安和愧疚.加上CAS有不好的影响,母亲很容易就找到其负面新闻和不好评论,结合其他原因造成悲剧,所以我认为主因在CAS的行为失当.这个很符合逻辑. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-16 (#5348516@0)

各人的嘴巴当然长在各人的嘴巴上，但除了这件事，应该让某些人看到，自己所应该负的责任。不要因为有个CAS当炮灰，就可以忘记自己所充当的角色，究竟是在挽救一个人，还是把那个人往绝望里推了一把。 -harddisk(坏了); 2009-6-17 (#5348833@0)

CAS是炮灰?还是主因,不要轻重不分,雨水中从来就有细菌,你被人砍了, 倒在雨中感染了死了, 是归责雨水还是砍你的人是凶手? 我想这些比喻已经浅显的不能再浅显了, 还不明白那就是在是不可理喻了. -sku(NOBE); 2009-6-17 (#5348841@0)

@San Francisco

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