That's because "made-in-China" actuaries do not have any experience. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat) @SF湾区华人论坛:SF湾区枫下论坛 The Rolia Forum of San Francisco

工作学习 / 求学深造 / 国内的侄子有过来读大学，滑铁卢的精算，只知道滑铁卢的计算机专业挺好，这个精算算不算个好专业，起码就业前景好 -cl281(担担面&蛋炒饭); 2009-5-14 {14} (#5264556@0)
对精算一无所知

Very, very, very good; especially co-op program. -hkchan(*); 2009-5-14 (#5265052@0)
First year is general math. Can only get into actuarial in second year. The cost benefit for this program is high. Much easier than Engineering/CS but much higher salary afterwards. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-5-14 (#5265068@0)
感觉像会计的延伸，算算准备金，年金，保额，未来给付什么的。收入起点高。 -kingsw(Steven); 2009-5-14 (#5265073@0)

It has abosolutely nothing to do with Accounting. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-5-15 (#5266557@0)

金饭碗！好好好！ -yueren(我要辞职); 2009-5-14 (#5265096@0)

金饭碗还不至于，找工作不好找，但找到的话收入会不错，不过收入再不错也没医生高，在美国加拿大actuary平均跟药剂师挣的差不多，我刚才去查的美国劳工数据厅的平均薪水表。 -dosimetrist(Radiation Oncology); 2009-5-25 (#5288674@0)

补一句：精算师收入没药剂师高（平均就稍差了几百-几千），两个大概都是在10万左右，收入上来看是份很好的工作。 -dosimetrist(Radiation Oncology); 2009-5-25 (#5288685@0)

在加拿大，有牌的精算师绝对赚的比有牌的药剂师高。药剂师封顶很快，精算师potential高很多。 -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-5-25 (#5288952@0)

安省刚毕业的retail pharmacists起薪就10万左右，一般药店一次给上万的sign on bonus，某连锁是一次3万还是5万多。虽然再干几年薪水涨幅不会很大但别忘了很多药剂师是自己开药铺自己当老板的。 -dosimetrist(Radiation Oncology); 2009-5-27 {199} (#5294088@0)
精算师真正能考出8个还是几个试的据说相当少，我听滑铁卢学精算的说一般起薪6万上下（前提还是能找到工作的），30来岁的时候10万应该也不愁，但以后有没有更大的潜力就要看个人了。干一辈子也爬不上去的大有人在。

See inside -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-5-27 {1306} (#5294185@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛Nowdays students are passing all the exams by 27, no kidding.

A qualified actuary make around 110K in the private sector. Unlike other profession, career progression comes with age in the actuarial profession since the older you are, the more valuable you are.

A qualified pharmacist make around 80K to start (seriously I do not know where your 100k comes from), yes, the starting salary is higher than an actuarial student. However, a qualified pharmacist cap at 120K~130K, which is pretty limited. Of course you can argue they can open their own shop and everything. But did you know that as a independent consultant, an actuary can bill for $400 to $600 per hour?

With signing bonus, in the Medical profession, it is common that if you are working for a remote area, you will get huge signing bonus, not only for pharmacist, but also for doctors and dentist. The question is do you want to work in the middle of nowhere? Otherwise, a pharmacist is not getting anymore signning bonus than an entry level actuarial student (in the 5k to 10k range).

Here is a link to compare the public sector (pharmacy vs. actuary). And it is pretty obvious that a qualified actuary make more than a qualified pharmacist.
http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/coll_agre/sh/sh07-eng.asp#Toc105550756
vs.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/coll_agre/sp/sp08-eng.asp#Toc154481582

See inside. -dosimetrist(Radiation Oncology); 2009-5-28 {3486} (#5297263@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛BScPharm start from at least 45$/hr, or around 90k/yr (hospital pharmacists make way less, that's why there're so few clinical pharmacists). Phamacies in Ontario usually offer around high 40s-50$ for starting, or about 95-98k per annum. In the States, even cities like Buffalo are offering pharmacists with 52-55$+, and many are offering 60$+ for starting. Pharm.Ds are paid even more. The median Pharm.D income in the States is around 120k, which is still higher than Actuary V. According to the US Bureau of Labor Stats, actuaries made around 96k in 08 while pharmacists made around 105k. No matter what you say pharmacists still make more than actuaries, and these stats have already included all the age ranges in these industries. Pharmacists are paid very similar whether they work in big metropolitans or small towns, while actuaries are paid much much lower in small cities.

And for the consultant thing, how many actuaries are actually going to become a consultant? As far as I know there're thousands of pharmacies being operated by pharmacists in Ontario and there're only around 10k registered pharmacists in Ontario (the ratio of actuarial manager : actuaries is way less than the ratio of pharmacy managers/owners : pharmacists). Furthermore nurse legal consultants are also making several hundred bucks an hour and massage therapsits are also charging up to 100/hr as well. These don't prove much because most people are not going to have clients for every hour they spend in their office.

And for sign on bonus, pharmacies in the GTA are getting 10-50 grands for new grads hired, I wasn't talking about remote areas. In remote areas hospital ads for technicians are in the range of 70-80k+. Even US nurses are getting 2k-10k sign on bonus these days (I'm talking about cities). For every nurse you refer you can get a few thousand $s, this is just the way it is, you can go check out job ads and take a look yourself.

Another thing is you were just comparing with the public sector. Collective bargaining proves nothing because cops are getting paid with 80k in 3 years these days (I doubt the median income for actuarial students are anywhere near 80k 3 years following graduation, yet most cops are making this much in under 4 years). Here's the data from the US Labor Bureau which included both the public & the private sectors, and all the other factors that you were talking about:

Actuary median income 08: $84,810; mean income: $95,980 http://www.bls.gov/oes/2008/may/oes152011.htm
Pharmacist median income 08: $106,410; mean income: $104,260 http://www.bls.gov/oes/2008/may/oes291051.htm

Sure some actuaries may have the chance to make 150k+ in their 40s & 200k+ in their 50s but when they were before the age of 40 pharmacists probably made quite a bit more with much much better employment rates and probably better benefits as well. Not to mention that the pharmacists are free from all the stress from work & the worries about loosing their jobs like the financial industry. Many of the experienced pharmacists chose to open their own pharmacies in their later years and those who did are probably making 300k-more than half a million on average since the revenue from the drug market is huge. This is why pharmacists made 10,000$ more than actuaries in 2008. By the way that category didn't even include pharmacy managers and pharmacy owners.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

I don't think so. Let me point you out what's wrong with your data. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-5-28 {1561} (#5297339@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛First, don't give me data from the States, we are living in Canada.

Second, don't give me average data comparing actuaries vs. pharmacist in the States. Because the data will contain population of non-qualified actuaries. As stated from my first post, we should only compare qualified actuaries and qualified pharmacist. Why? The reason is simple. Your data for pharmacist does not include pharmacy assistant or technician or interns (which are mainly pharmacist students), so why should the data for actuaries include non-qualified actuarial students? Unfortunately the data for actuaries do not separate them like the data for pharmacist do.

If you want the data for qualified actuaries, look here:
http://dwsimpson.com/salary.html
FSA with 2.5 ~ 4.5yrs of experience make 95-142K US$ per year, which is the norm in Canada. And the salary goes up with age. Unlike pharmacist who cap out quickly at around $120~$130k.

Third, the fact is in Canada, Actuaries qualify by around 27 to 28 and make around $110K starting from there. And unfortunately in the US, actuaries do not qualify in average until 33 or even older. Again, some even choose not to qualify and still be included in your data. But your data certainly does not contain pharmacy students who decide not to be qualified.

The public sector is the most representative of CANADIAN environment because I cannot find a credible source for comparing qualified actuaries vs. qualified pharmacist. I don't think pharmacist start at $45 dollar per hour also. See the link below for CANADA:更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
http://www.bls.gov/oes/2008/may/oes152011.htm

Actuarial Consultant, RE-06 ; Salary Range: $84,900 to $108,100; Fellowship of the Canadian Institute of Actuaries -hkchan(*); 2009-5-28 {1445} (#5297359@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛Actuarial Consultant, RE-06, OFFICE OF THE SUPERINTENDENT OF FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONSPosted May 20, 2009

Toronto, Ontario, CANADA

Industry:
Financial

Actuarial Consultant, RE-06
Position: Actuarial Consultant (RE-06)
Division: Actuarial Division
Salary Range: $84,900 to $108,100
Location: Toronto
Appointment: Indeterminate
Number of positions to be staffed with this advertised process: 1
Area of Selection: Persons residing in Canada and Canadian citizens residing abroad
Closing date: June 3, 2009, 11:59 pm ET

Duties: OSFI'sActuarial Division is seeking a highly motivated individual to carry out the role of Actuarial Consultant. The successful candidate will provide actuarial advice to teams in OSFI's Regulation and Supervision Sectors with respect to risks within life insurers, actuarial valuation, financial statement presentation and capital requirements. The successful candidate must be an actuarial professional capable of participating in the division's efforts in examining actuarial and risk management practices, both in Canada and internationally.

ESSENTIAL QUALIFICATIONS

Candidates must meet all the essential qualifications to be appointed to a position.

Education

Graduation with a degree from a recognized university with acceptable specialisation in actuarial science or other specialty related to the position, and
Fellowship of the Canadian Institute of Actuaries更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
Your data comes from a RECRUITMENT AGENCY. For crying out loud pharmacy recruitment agencies have also posted 300k-500k job offers before. The other thing is -dosimetrist(Radiation Oncology); 2009-5-28 {1083} (#5297618@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛I started with both the Canadian & US stats, if you don't want to deal with it why do you even bother replying? And you're so wrong about the "qualified" and "unqualified" part. Pharmacy technicians go through 1 year of college, and they can't become pharmacists no matter what unless they can get into pharm school, which generally requires a min of 5 years of university education. Actuarial graduates may not be fully qualified as a fellow actuary but they graduate from actuarial programs with relevant experiences, pharmacy techs do not, you're talking about totally different jobs here. Engineering graduates don't graduate with P.Eng too but do you not call them engineers?

So you're saying the salary stats shouldn't include the new grads? Ok, the salary.com has also provided data for Actuary I-V, and the median salary for level 5 actuary is only 120k. Level 3 and below are all making less than 80k for median.

PS: you don't think pharmacists start from at least 45$/hr then why don't you go and ask a few pharm grads or pharmacy managers?更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

The simple fact is I will not say to a qualified chartered accountant that look, your average salary is only $45K a year because you belong to the accounting group, where the group includes accounting students, etc. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-5-29 {1471} (#5299255@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛If you can't see this when you are making a comparison, I can only say that you need more statistical training to understand what is called survivor bias in data sampling.

For certain professions, especially in the medical industry, you need a license to practice. So your salary survey only includes those with the licenses. For other profession, such as engineering, accounting, actuarial, or almost anything that's not related to medical or law, the salary data will include those working in the field but not yet qualified. It's as simple as that.

So when you compare pharmacist and all other medical profession to profession such as engineering, finance, accounting, etc, you put a upward bias in your data. Your elimination happens in admission to University or throughout University, whereas the elimination for these professions are probably through the lifetime of their career.

I hope you see this clearly when you are making a comparison.

The public sector salary range is the best comparison about how the biggest employer in Canada (the gov't) view the perceived value of those professions on a qualified basis.

You also another survivor bias in your data when you say pharmacy owner makes a lot more. If that is the case, why don't all the pharmacist become a pharmacy owners? What about those owners who cannot sustain their businesses and go bankrupt? When you are running any businesses, there are always risk. That is a simple fact.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
Here is a link to how much pharmacist would make from a pharmacist: -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-5-29 {494} (#5299293@0)
Quote:
Starting wages for pharmacists can be anywhere from $70000 to $80000 and upwards to $120000 per year. Know what to expect to make as an entry ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9eg-PU7mK0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9eg-PU7mK0

You need to re-read what I wrote and understand what my point is. -dosimetrist(Radiation Oncology); 2009-5-28 {394} (#5297633@0)
I have said numerous times that pharmacy is a job that you don't need to work hard for 100k+, you graduate with that much money and if you aren't happy with it then you can start your own pharmacy and make a lot more.
Actuary is a job that you need to work very hard in order to pass the exams and become a real actuary and make 100k+ or even more, but many people won't be able to make it.

I think there is another difference as well. Actuaries typical spend most of their time in front of their computer (even if you are VP). Whereas pharmacist are more people oriented; especially if you own a store. -hkchan(*); 2009-5-29 {217} (#5298463@0)
How to keep your customer satisfied is key to success.

So look at the mirror and think what kind of person you are. BTW, I think not that many fresh qualified actuaries (with 2 - 3 years experience can earn $110K.

I'm speaking with the experience of my company, which is the largest employer of qualified actuaries in Canada. The typical paid for fresh fellow is around 100 to 110K. And the avg quanlification period in my company is around 3 years upon graduation. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-5-29 {293} (#5299268@0)
It also depends on your career inspiration. As an actuary, the career potential is unlimited, you can become a CEO, Chairman, etc, etc, where you are rich and famous.

As a pharmacist, yes, you can become a pharmacy owner, but that's nowhere near the potential of the actuarial profession.

MFC? -hkchan(*); 2009-5-29 (#5299417@0)

NB专业，工作不愁而且工资不错。关键一点，是要能上出来，很多人上不出来，很多中国孩子数学很好的，进去都很吃力。 -ttl(日后再说); 2009-5-14 (#5265124@0)

Much easier than engineering, computer science, doctor, etc. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-5-15 (#5266560@0)

比engineering， cs 难多了，估计比doctor简单。 -ttl(日后再说); 2009-5-15 (#5266912@0)

I did the program. Trust me. The difficulty is nowhere close to Engineering and also easier than CS. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-5-15 (#5267112@0)

请问UFT的精算专业与WATERLOO的精算专业有何区别?谢谢先. -happy2003(happy2003); 2009-5-15 (#5268438@0)

UW has coop. UT does not. The biggest difference. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-5-15 (#5268587@0)

I hope you understand no all the graduate got a job; only the very best. -hkchan(*); 2009-5-15 (#5266502@0)

Above average can find a job. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-5-15 (#5266558@0)

Agree, I just don't want people have a wrong perspective any actuarial graduate can get a decent job. -hkchan(*); 2009-5-15 (#5267069@0)

感谢大家的发言，起码看上去不是个坏专业， -cl281(担担面&蛋炒饭); 2009-5-16 {24} (#5268855@0)
师傅领进门，修行在个人。
不错的专业。北美很多数学功底好的博士生转专业不少都选择精算，一般去保险等行业。国内精算师人数不多，将来国内的发展空间肯定比留在北美还要大。 -manniangpai(慢两拍); 2009-5-17 (#5270830@0)

瞎说，我表弟，和他媳妇都是有资格的精算师, 国内根本不需要那么多精算师, 我表弟说８０－９０％都改行了。 -yye(曲院风荷); 2009-5-21 (#5279325@0)

是啊，不懂乱说的人还不少，jeffrey815是waterloo学这个专业毕业的，他应该最了解。我听同学说这个专业就业面比较窄，工作不是那么好找。还请证实。 -zhu(ironic); 2009-5-21 (#5279399@0)

这种一个就够了的专业，能好到哪里去？占了好坑，读个这专业的PARTTIME MATER倒不错。还是CS好，哪里都能去，万能膏药。 -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-5-21 (#5279444@0)

好像已经热了好几年了。有无人满为患的可能？ -neverlookback(狗子); 2009-5-21 (#5279499@0)

我听说这边是原来挺缺精算人才的，结果大家都去学精算，然后就很难找工作了。国内据说更缺精算，不过听说现在学精算的也多了，但海龟精算的那还是极少极少吧，大部分都是经济管理之类的。 -dosimetrist(Radiation Oncology); 2009-5-25 (#5288679@0)

It's not good for career changer. For people start fresh, it is a good program. If you get into the coop program and you do not limit yourself geographically (meaning u r willing to go to US), it's almost 50% employment rate during a normal year. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-5-21 {869} (#5279504@0)
During financial crisis, everything is different of course.

The other 40% might elect to stop writing exams, or elect to go to Finance and write CFA exams. This cohort will work for the commercial or investment bank.

10% continue with their study to get a Master's degree.

For people doing regular program without coop, the employment rate will be around 20%. The other 80% will do the above (they are not unemployed, they are just working in some other professions).

Staring salary around 60K, with average 10~15K increase each year base almost 100% on exams. After finishing all the exams, the salary is around 100K and further increase is slower (5~10K) and based on merit and career progression.

The beauty about this profession is the older you get, the more valuable you are, the higher you would get paid. Unlike IT, your value decrease with age.

真心请教。我五年前考过两门精算，后来找到银行工作就没有再考。现在觉得在浪费生命，想重新考证。只是担心年纪太大了，37岁了。我在银行里做信贷的风险分析，教育背景是经济学硕士和计算机本科，理科非常好，英文一般。万分感激 -kevinchen(kevinchen); 2009-6-2 (#5307487@0)

要是学完直接回国，只有上海，北京才有精算师的职位。去上海，北京和其他地方外资银行，保险公司都有可能。女的去招聘会有歧视，很多地方不要女的。 -yye(曲院风荷); 2009-5-22 (#5281846@0)

That's because "made-in-China" actuaries do not have any experience. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-5-21 {980} (#5279560@0)
For computer science, you have an architect who designed the software and you have coder/developer who write the codes. The coder/developer will slowly progress and become an architect.

For Actuarial Science, you would have an experienced actuary designing the products/ideas, but you do not need a inexperience actuary to implement them. You can hire business analyst, stasticians, computer science graduates, finance graduates, who would be paid much less to implment those ideas.

That's why an experienced actuaries (especially those with N.A. experience) make lots of money in China, while those fresh out of school (or those made-in-China actuaries) simply cannot find a job. Both of my friend who went back to China immediately after they qualified with about 5 years of experience, their offers were on the 600K RMB to 700K range with at least AVP title (one of them become VP after one year). In Canada, they would still be just a little potato manager (like me).

有见地！jeffrey815是不是也考虑海龟一下？ -199yuan(猜猜); 2009-5-21 (#5279587@0)

Nah. I enjoy my 40hr work-week in Canada. They work a minimum 70hr work-week in China. Our HK/China office replies emails 24/7. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-5-21 (#5279611@0)

You must be working in an insurance company. Most consulting firms require longer work hours. I know someone working in Mercer spends more than 50 hours at his office each week. -ecilamtl(Tony); 2009-5-22 (#5280717@0)

Mercer exploits workers, especially entry level. You can see people 3 levels above you are doing interesting jobs but all you do is repetitive tasks, and for a long time. Not to mention their pay is so crappy. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-5-22 (#5280881@0)

Correct me if I am wrong. IMO whether an actuarial job is interesting sometimes depends on the field you are working in. My impression is that pension related projects are more boring than others under most circumstances. -ecilamtl(Tony); 2009-5-22 {123} (#5281165@0)
Compensation wise, Eckler is more generous. I heard very few Chinese get the chance to fill their opening positions though.

It's simply that when you are working at a pension valuation firm, unless you are a consultant, all you do is pension valuation, maybe for a couple years, where most knowledge you would learn in your year. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-5-22 {115} (#5281263@0)
After that, nothing more than a repetitive process.

Eckler has life and P&C consulting. It's more diversified.

I called them factory instead of actuary. -hkchan(*); 2009-5-22 (#5282086@0)

我表弟和他媳妇都是英国最好的精算系毕业的，证都考好。就是没能在英国找工作。加拿大留学生容易留下来工作。 -yye(曲院风荷); 2009-5-22 (#5281689@0)

I would say it is impossible for your brother to get his FSA or equivalent designation without any working experience. I could be wrong if things are different in UK. There is a huge difference between actuary and actuarial student. -ecilamtl(Tony); 2009-5-22 {539} (#5282195@0)
Looking for an actuarial job in Canada is almost as difficult as, if not harder than, any other country except US. I have been told repeatedly that the last thing you want to do is to graduate with too many exams and zero experience. Many Chinese students are smart enough in exams but are hindered by language barriers. I know a guy who has an impeccable GPA (4.0/4.0) with 4 SOA exams while still could not get a job. No employer is willing to pay the premium to reward over-passing exams when someone else can do the work just as good.

一朋友的女儿在这间学校的这个专业毕业(今年),刚找了份工作,年薪6万多,不知算不算好呢? -haole555(speaker); 2009-5-25 (#5288687@0)

@San Francisco

That's because "made-in-China" actuaries do not have any experience.

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